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Posts: 19

1


My immediate thought is that you've left context out of this completely. It really depends on what you're talking about.
In many situations I could agree completely. In many situations, that approach will end with everyone dead.
You'll never hear this from an NCO in Claymore training, or at a grenade range. You can be certain of that.
Plenty of situations where it fits, though. I can see this preserving a marriage, or keeping a kid from being tortured under the mantra of "tough love."
"A work of art is never complete, only abandoned."
--daVinci

2

So, how do you mean?

3

I agree. There are situations where freedom is not a good thing. You have offered good examples in which freedom is sacrificed for a practical purpose.
But sacrificed it is.
The context I have in mind might be called the Capitol P perfections over which believers are willing to ho to war.

4

I think I am saying something like your objections to religionists and left and right fanatics.

5

There's no freedom in being dead. There is no freedom without enforcement, and most of forum is proof of that. There is no freedom of speech, for example, in an atmosphere where everyone says and does whatever they please, because people will use their freedom to eliminate others' freedom. People will flood a channel with their own interests, they will overwhelm, hijack, and repurpose discussion, they will gang up with people of like agendas, and simply make it impossible for others to be heard.
Religion and politics are the major tools for this obnoxious behavior, which is why they are suppressed here.
Would taking cops off the street make everyone free?
There is no freedom anywhere where some are free to take away the freedom of others. That's not freedom, that's the opposite of freedom. That's oppression.

6

--unless I've mistaken your meaning entirely, frank thinker.
I've no objection to your generalized phrasing of your ideas, but it also means people will have to guess at your meaning, and guesswork means a good chance of misunderstanding you--despite what Karl might say. lol
https://uploads.disquscdn.c...

7

I know all these things.  I am grateful for all who have voluntarily served because they gave up freedoms in order to make freedom possible and security possible. That is the nature of any disciplined life, in athletics, in art, in philosophy, in the stronger protecting the weaker, instead of exploiting them. The freedom that resides in submission to discipline is in having an understanding of this path, in which the goal is the best possible from one's own self, not perfection required of someone else. Now, that's oppression.

8

I'm very open to your discussion here, I think I'm just at a loss for words. I'm not sure what to say. I can't tell if you're just speaking generally, or looking for a lead-in to challenge my position on religious or political posts. Once again, that's how generalizing works. It's fraught with misunderstanding.
I haven't been ignoring you. I just went on a 4 mile hike to get off my ass and get some exercise. Just got back.
I think eventually VJ and everyone else will join in.

9

https://uploads.disquscdn.c...  https://uploads.disquscdn.c...  https://uploads.disquscdn.c...

10

I'm still trying to work out something meaningful to say on something so generalized, while remaining kind and respectful to someone clearly just trying to give meaningful thought to things.
How about this?
Maybe a good place to start with the reasoning, if we're going to be this context independent, is deciding whether we're thinking additively or subtractively.
An example of what I mean would be the difference of building versus sculpting. With sculpting, you keep taking things away, until what's left is what you want. With building, you keep adding, until what's there is what you want.

11

I'll need to get back to you later.
I am supportive of your positions.
Sorry. Got to go.

12

Electronics, that was my profession.

13

What any given man thinks is perfection is naturally subjective, even to those who consider themselves perfectionists. In a Platonic sense, perfection is an ideal. An example of an ideal is the word "dog".
I immediately think of a beagle, as I happen to like them. Any other reader would probably select another breed, either from preference or random chance.
https://uploads.disquscdn.c...
In my view, physical perfection in a female would be Lee Purcell, at 25.
https://uploads.disquscdn.c...
Undoubtedly, someone out there thinks she is a dog.
Perfection is an illusion.

14

I don't know about subjective, but I think most people have extremely subjective views about freedom. It's not just obstinate ignorance, though. Most people just have never enjoyed that much freedom. Most people's lives are encumbered by many things that limit their freedom, so they don't recognize it anymore for what it is. Most people live in a reasonably safe atmosphere, so they don't know that that atmosphere is not automatic. You have to actually experience, or at least see extreme examples of what happens to people's freedom when there is nobody there to protect them from having another person using his own freedom to kick their ass, murder their wives, rape their kids, burn their house, and kill their dog. We don't want anyone to experience that, of course--that's the whole point of enforcement, to keep some assholes from doing that to others. It's not the only way to take away freedom though. There are other forces at work in civilized society, that are just as effective, but not as violent. How about the landed gentry organizing with eachother so well that the housing market skyrockets, and one cannot have a place to live without giving away 70% of his pay? People are enslaved to their houses these days, and there's a church on every corner standing ready to reinforce acceptability of that system by keeping them feeling okay with whatever happens to be going wrong in their lives.
I'm not saying I have a solution, but I think in this atmosphere, people are unlikely to see freedom as a product of enforcement, because their loss of freedom is taken from them civilly. It's not a lot better than taking it by force, but without the barbarity, it's not an easy thing to grasp. It's a lot easier to understand when one has seen or experienced brutality. It's a paradox that cannot be changed, though, because of course, suppressing brutality is always the goal.

15

Great insight, Null! Kudos! ;-)

16

Right now I don't know what I want to say.  I'm fine with that.
I didn't take you to be saying I should be quiet. My choice.
Really.

17

I knew we had much in common.
I, too, have the experience and the tools to build a house from footings to roof ridge. I have done HVAC work, but am no longer qualified.
I take pride in being handed a broken mechanical device I've never seen before and quickly seeing what the problem is. Basic electrical, yes. Electronics and auto mechanics, no. But only because I never had occasion to do it.
Do you by any chance remember Heathkit? I so badly wanted to build my own analogue sound system when I was a teenager, but no money.
My first word processor and printer was an Osborne computer driving an IBM electronic typewriter.  Wordstar I think it was.

18

I definitely remember Heathkits. I often fixed ones that others built wrong. There was a console TV they turned out that was basically a duplicate of an RCA, SCR problems and all.
Heathkit is now a shadow of its former self, and that sucks, but oh well.
My skills are out of date too, though I still do appliances and antique radios, TV and such. As far as computers go - I had a TRS 80 if you remember those useless wrecks...

19

Trash 80. No, I never had that pleasure. Missed the K-Pro, too. Had a series of low end PC desk tops over the years. Word processing was their only reason for being.

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